Words have power

keywords

success metrics, client relationships, reputation management, awards, reviews, Google ratings

summary

The conversation explores the importance of evaluating success through various metrics such as awards, client relationships, and online reputation. It emphasizes the significance of being recognized in the industry and maintaining a strong reputation to attract top-tier clients.

takeaways

• Success can be measured through various metrics.

• Awards and reviews play a crucial role in reputation.

• Being highly rated on platforms like Google is essential.

• Working with top-tier clients enhances credibility.

• Client relationships are vital for long-term success.

• Recognition in the industry can lead to more opportunities.

• A strong online presence is important for attracting clients.

• Evaluating success should be an ongoing process.

• Understanding client needs can improve service delivery.

• Building a reputation takes time and consistent effort.

titles

• Measuring Success: The Importance of Recognition

• Building a Reputation: Awards and Client Relationships

Sound Bites

• "Do you have awards?"

• "Are you the highest rated on Google?"

• "Are you working with top-tier clients?"

Transcript

Alex Hobcraft (00:01)

Welcome everyone to Local Grit. Today I'm with Vanessa Green and if you have overlooked copywriting in your business, you've missed out on probably one of the most effective tools for the digital and non-digital marketing toolbox. Vanessa Green is the founder of Greenlight Content, is Hamilton's premier copywriter and content creator. ⁓ And as written on her website, writing that gets to the heart of your business. Vanessa, welcome to Local Grit.

Vanessa Green (00:28)

Hi, thanks for having me, Alex. Glad to be here.

Alex Hobcraft (00:31)

So you grew up in Hamilton, you got your degree in the East Coast, I believe, and then you landed here in Hamilton, which is a city pretty much well known for its grit. Do you find that that grit comes through with the clients that you choose and how you write? ⁓ For example, like when you're writing for a local organization like the Hamilton Literacy Council, do you try to have some grit into that or do you just try and write what's best for them?

Vanessa Green (01:00)

Yeah, that's a great question. just to clarify, I was born in Hamilton and moved here like seven years ago, but I didn't actually grow up here, which I'm quite sad about. I kind of wish I did. I'm like a wannabe Hamilton kid, but I'm making the most of it now. ⁓ But yeah, it's a great question. Like I think yeah, Hamilton is super gritty. It's, it's what I love about the city. And I think like that is part of my approach to like I try and be very honest and direct ⁓ in my writing. And I think that's just, you know, that's best

Alex Hobcraft (01:21)

you you

Vanessa Green (01:30)

practice in general, even though it is kind of reflective of the way Hamilton is as a city. ⁓ I think Hamiltonians are kind of like very no bullshit. have like, you know, they like things to be clear and simple, and they don't want any fluff. And so I try and use that approach in my my

Alex Hobcraft (01:47)

Okay. Okay.

Vanessa Green (01:47)

marketing and my writing, when I'm working for clients. And I think yeah, like just keeping it kind of like no no nonsense and grounded and really human. I think that's what a lot of marketing is kind of missing. Like we are

you know, there's like too much jargon and fluff and I think just keeping it really authentic even though that word it's also been kind of overused but I do think that the, you know, idea behind that is still what should guide a lot

of marketing today especially when a lot of it doesn't sound very human. So, yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (02:17)

Yeah,

it does. It does. ⁓ I've advised many clients on their marketing and it's hard to get that messaging of how they are in person onto their website. ⁓ Now, funny story, not funny story, but we both worked for Digital Main Street while you did programs for City of Hamilton, especially during COVID for City of Main Street.

That's where I first learned about how your approach was and I just loved how you just had exactly what you just said. It's very realistic, very simple language that people do try to over complicate a lot of messaging. So ⁓ when you came up with the workshop names that actually got small business owners into the door, ⁓ what were those local...

businesses really up against, this is during COVID, trying to go digital, and how did your words give them a push?

Vanessa Green (03:12)

Yeah, that's great question. So yeah, was doing workshops. I've been doing them for about four years with like the City of Hamilton, the Hamilton Business Centre. And at the time it was supported by Digital Main Street. And I think the idea was really, you know, a lot of small businesses don't have big marketing budgets. They're not going to outsource to like an expensive agency. Like how can they kind of get it done in-house? And even if they were maybe going to hire someone, how do they know what good looks like when it comes to copy and messaging and that kind of thing? So the idea was really trying to remove some of that like

Alex Hobcraft (03:33)

. you

Vanessa Green (03:42)

overwhelm that I think a lot of businesses who don't have a marketing background, business owners kind of experience. So the names of the workshops were meant to just really kind of, again, be simple and direct. So I think the one I've run the most, probably like a dozen times with the city

of Hamilton and Digital Main Street is how to write high impact copy for your business, even if you're not a copywriter. And so that was really like, I think because it kind of said what it was on the tin, there was no fluffy jargon and it also

Alex Hobcraft (04:01)

. you

Vanessa Green (04:11)

kind of helped, you know. ⁓

Give them that confidence, like you don't have to be a professional copywriter to like write really strong messaging for your business that will appeal to your audience and reflect your brand. So I think

we just tried to keep the messaging and the titles really simple, but like still compelling. And it's funny because one of the things in the writing workshop, the copywriting workshop I talk about is how important headlines are, how important like your subject line or your blog headline or your headline on your website, like those things are the most important because it's the first

Alex Hobcraft (04:27)

you .

Vanessa Green (04:44)

thing people see and if they lose interest then you've lost them and it doesn't matter what else is in the email or on your website like they're never gonna read it so we talked about the importance of spending a lot of time like that hook and really bringing them in and keeping them engaged but it's interesting because another thing I talk about in the workshop is it's a quote actually from ⁓ from Einstein of all people that basically says like if you don't if you can't explain something ⁓ simply

Alex Hobcraft (04:54)

Okay.

Vanessa Green (05:14)

you don't understand it well enough. And I think about that a lot because, you know, it is very difficult to simplify the complex. It's literally why people hire marketing

experts and agencies to take these like really technical ideas and distill them into something simple that will appeal to their audience. ⁓ And so I think there is sometimes ⁓ this desire to like, you know, write in really complex ways or try and sound clever or, you know, try and big up your copy and write, you know, beautiful prose or something like that. And I think

Alex Hobcraft (05:23)

you

Vanessa Green (05:44)

you know, it really comes down to just like understanding the core tenets of what you're offering and how that offers a solution to your audience and simply stating that, which is a lot more difficult than it sounds.

Alex Hobcraft (05:57)

It really is, but I do find that what a lot of people do, I remember helping this one client, she sold organic cheese cloth and her writing was just so, it was trying to sound professional and at the same time it didn't sound professional.

And I said, you know, I've met with you a couple of times and I'm like, your playfulness and your humor and stuff, that's not coming through on your website. And she literally said to me, you're allowed to do that. And it's funny how people think that you have to follow these rules that they don't really know about that we've learned in maybe grade school about grammar and how to do, but that's not copywriting, is it?

Vanessa Green (06:39)

Sure.

For sure, no. And it's an interesting point because I think that is kind of a default. We're like, well, it's like we're penning a high school English essay. And it's like, but that's not what people want to read. And like, you know, if you put yourself in their shoes, like that's not what you would want to read on the receiving end either. ⁓ So I think we talk a lot about just finding that human emotional connection when you write. Like even if you're in B2B, like I write for a lot of B2B clients, it's like there's still a human being making that decision at the end of the day.

Alex Hobcraft (07:04)

.

Vanessa Green (07:11)

So how do you appeal to their emotions? How do you recognize them as a human who's in a challenging position and you're going to help solve it? know, thinking about things like offering relief or reducing

Alex Hobcraft (07:19)

you

Vanessa Green (07:20)

stress and, know, sometimes we get hung up on features and, ⁓ you know, technical aspects. But really, it's kind of like how can you connect with that emotional part of them, whether they're a consumer or, you you're selling to a business?

Alex Hobcraft (07:35)

Yeah, if you can just, I read this the other day, if you could just show how useful you can be to someone, that is far more effective than flowery words. I know that some people try to get into the keywords for the SEO stuff, which is fair, like I get, I understand that. ⁓ But it does have to, I think simplicity is best. ⁓

You've worked with a lot of different types of businesses. So you've worked for like Vetster, which was really interesting to learn about. They do telemedicine for businesses as a perk, for their employees as a perk. You've worked for a Brizzo food metrics, which helps food supplies make smarter moves. ⁓ Food suppliers, sorry. And then IPEX, which you wrote a white paper and case studies for plumbers and builders, which I find most interesting are the case studies. But they're all very different. How do you...

your copywriting for such diversity and then how do you use your case studies which I find is something that not a lot of people really think about with their marketing and copywriting.

Vanessa Green (08:37)

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, a lot of copywriters and content marketers, you know, niche down, they'll just pick one sector industry to work in. And I didn't do that because I really like learning about, you know, all these different industries and business owners and audiences. ⁓ So I think, yeah, for sure. And I mean, like, not, you know, not to dismiss people that do niche down because there's totally a need for that. And I think I understand why people do it. But and I think just kind of like, for me, leaning on my journalism background, like I, you know, every day as a journalist, you're learning about a new topic and you kind

Alex Hobcraft (08:52)

Me too,

Vanessa Green (09:07)

of have to become an expert or interview the experts and learn as much as you can. So that is kind of what motivated me to kind of not be specific in terms of like my sectors

that I specialize in. But I think the approach I take is really again, like kind of goes back to my journalism background is that, you know, it's really about asking questions interviewing, like I, for all of the work I do, I interview my clients. So I would never, you know, just take a brief and go away and write it like a lot of it is about understanding their business, asking them questions and asking their

Alex Hobcraft (09:37)

you

Vanessa Green (09:37)

clients questions, which is where case studies really come into the mix. And again, you know, even though those three businesses that you mentioned are very different, like the approach and the framework I use is the same, it's really about understanding the audience pain points, how their solution helps them, what makes this those businesses different in their market. ⁓ So it's really about, you know,

Alex Hobcraft (09:39)

you

Vanessa Green (09:59)

asking a lot of questions, ⁓ understanding like goals and objectives of their audience. And then obviously, you still need to understand the specific language that they use.

Alex Hobcraft (10:03)

. you

Vanessa Green (10:07)

within their sectors. But a lot of it is really about understanding audience need, ⁓ and helping them show how their solution kind of solves for that. ⁓ And I think that's, know, case studies have become so popular in terms of like the work that I'm doing for clients over the last few months, because it's kind of like letting someone else do the marketing for you.

I think we're becoming increasingly skeptical of people making claims. Because, you know, anyone can say anything on their website, but like, can you get someone to back it up for

And that's where case studies come in, because you're like, here's an actual example of how our solution helped a business. ⁓ You know, we put it in context, and we've got a great testimonial, and they're kind of doing that, selling for us. So, you know, it's, and I apply the same approach to, you know, any, any customer I work with, or any client I work with, because ⁓ effectively, that's what you're doing is showcasing value. And then, you know, obviously, the language, once you get down to like, the nitty gritty needs to reflect that sector they work in. But the

Alex Hobcraft (10:44)

Okay. Okay.

Vanessa Green (11:08)

overarching approach is kind of still the same.

Alex Hobcraft (11:11)

Yeah, and the hidden bonus in that, which not a lot of people realize with case studies, is that ⁓ you're able to get companies to talk to their clients. And it's amazing how many businesses don't speak to their clients, who I've worked with. And I know that some of it is they feel like they're bothering them or they're... But you don't understand, like when you get that information from clients, you are helping your clients by having a better service.

And then that case study becomes that proof, as you said, for future clients. So in many ways, that work is not just you writing the words or getting the words. It's getting the businesses to do a little bit more of the heavy lifting or a little bit of the hard work at first. But the payoffs are truly phenomenal. ⁓ I just heard just recently, Rand Fishkin, who's part of Spark Turo. I don't know if you know him. He's a marketer.

Vanessa Green (12:08)

Yep.

Alex Hobcraft (12:10)

⁓ It's a of a nerdy. And he was saying the other benefit that case studies have is because with this huge push with AI, what happens is that it allows your SEO to do work for you because these case studies are what they're looking for to give to customers. And so it changes how people are searching in a certain way because people are specifically asking these questions that are answered in the case studies that you do. ⁓

And so, ⁓ yeah, I think that the case studies is the future, and I think that they are super, super important, definitely. ⁓

Vanessa Green (12:49)

Yeah, so

I was gonna say on that, like they're real powerhouse. And I think the other benefit they add is like, you know, lot of companies can't afford to do like market research. ⁓ But K-Cities kind of are a form of market research in a way, you know, you're asking questions about what did they like about your service? What didn't they like? What were they looking for in a provider? You know, what were the results like? And then you also get a testimonial from them that you can use in your marketing as well. So like, there's all these different benefits to this one piece of content that allows it to kind of, you know, you can kind of use it in all these different

Alex Hobcraft (12:58)

Right.

Vanessa Green (13:19)

places, both for research purposes, but also like for marketing purposes. So I just wanted to throw that out there because I think case studies have like, they're, they're a bit of an investment, but they have a huge payoff, I think in terms of how you can use them.

Alex Hobcraft (13:26)

Mm. Agreed,

agreed, totally. So, I mean, just, you know, going off on that, what would you say is the biggest mistake?

that clients make with their copywriting. I'll give you some of mine that I've noticed as a non-professional copywriter and as general digital marketer, but what's one that you see often?

Vanessa Green (13:51)

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, ⁓ so I think the first one is really like...

a lot of clients, if they have to do their own copywriting, will just sit and start writing. And to me, the copywriting process is 90 % research, 90 % prep, 90 % interviews, 90%. The writing part is almost the last thing, and it's almost not the smallest thing because it's important, but there's so much work you have to do before you could even write one word of copy. So I think not maybe investing in that research piece. And I think when clients do that, they often just sit and start writing. They're like, well, I'll make some assumptions.

or I'll write about what I think is important. And like that kind of copy never really converts because it's not based on the needs of their audience. So I think writing from their perspective rather than what is relevant to their audience is one of the biggest mistakes. ⁓ And the other one for me is really ⁓ not backing up what they say. So like when I am interviewing clients, especially for things like website copy, you know, they'll say, well, you know, we're, ⁓ you know, like the number one ⁓ heavy haul trucking company in Hamilton. And I'm like, okay, how?

Why? Like, do you have awards? Do you have reviews? Are you the highest rated on Google? You know, have you

like, you know, are you working with like top tier clients? Like, how? And I think a lot of clients, you know, it's a great exercise when I do it, because it forces them to have to figure out how they can back up what they're saying. So whether that is like, okay, well, yeah, actually, we do have a lot of reviews, but we don't really talk about them. But we should, you know, mention that on the website, or, you know, we've worked with over 500 clients, but we've never really talked about that. So it makes them kind of think about how do

Alex Hobcraft (15:04)

.

Vanessa Green (15:27)

back up what you're saying? How do you prove, know, answer that like how kind of

question? And a lot of clients, I don't think really have the follow through, like they make a lot of claims, but then they can't really back it up. And I think copy needs to really have that kind of proof behind it to be to be impactful. Because again, we're like, we're very skeptical people, we're very dubious, and we need proof. And we want, ⁓ we want you to prove, you know, that you're what you're saying is true.

Alex Hobcraft (15:54)

Yeah, no, definitely. For me, I think the number one, and this is mostly from the sole openers than from the bigger businesses,

is how they miswrite the about me page or about you page. And really they just give you, was born in 1941 and I went to this college and I actually got this accolade. And if you're a writer, that could be understandable, but really your about you page is how your skills help your client. People actually don't really give a shit about you. They wanna know how you're going to solve their problem. And...

Vanessa Green (16:25)

Yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (16:29)

And so I find that a lot of people misuse the About Me page or the About page and don't really, they're just very literal about it. And if you're strategic, like you mentioned before, and you write your About, the About page so that it's just like, hey, I have this education, these are the people I've worked with, and these are the results I've got, far more effective marketing than by just giving your history of your life.

Vanessa Green (16:57)

Yeah, mean, so I partially agree with that, although I do kind of feel like in my mind, your whole website should be doing that. So your whole website should be like, what are my skills? What's my unique selling proposition? know, how am I going to help you? And here's proof. I do kind of feel like the about page to me, sometimes I feel like it does need a bit more personality and it does need a bit more personal information because I think like, you know, I think the way buyers are today, like we I think things like support local, like I

Alex Hobcraft (17:26)

Hmm.

Vanessa Green (17:27)

at things like support Canadian businesses, especially right now. Like people like to understand there's a human behind it. And so I agree, like I don't, you don't need to go into like super in-depth detail about every, you know, ⁓

milestone of your life. But I do think having a little bit of personality can help make that feel a bit more human. ⁓ One thing I think on about pages that I don't love is like when there is no information about the team at all or the person behind it, sometimes it'll just be like a mission statement, which is fine. ⁓

But it's like, but who are, is there a face to the business? Is there people that I can look up on LinkedIn? Like, are you legit? And to me, I talk to the clients a lot about that is like, don't be afraid to like put your face on your website. Like it makes you more trustworthy because there's a real human being

behind it, you know? So totally agree with you, but I also think there's an opportunity to almost make it more human while you're showing that value that you can provide at the same time.

Alex Hobcraft (18:19)

That's a great tip. I hadn't looked at it from that aspect. You do need the humanity. It's funny that you say about the picture because it's something I advise people all the time. It's like why you don't have a picture. There was one story of this designer who I helped and she did ⁓ people's spaces. She did beautiful work. Her work was amazing. But on her about

Vanessa Green (18:31)

Yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (18:40)

About me page was a picture of her in the corner in the desk and it was the back of her head at her desk. And I'm, and I was like, what's, what are you just trying to say here? And as soon as I said it, she was like, my God, I get it now. Like sometimes they need that being pointed out by, but, you do need to have a certain amount of face and, and, and, and the human element. So, ⁓ I totally think that's great. Yeah.

Vanessa Green (18:47)

So fun. Yeah.

Yeah.

for sure.

For sure. Yeah. And

I think people are a bit nervous about like, it's hard when you run your own business because you do have to do that branding piece, right? Where you have to be the face of your organization. And some people hate that. I didn't love it when I started and I've become more comfortable with it because I'm like, this, you have to. Like, I think if you're gonna run your own business, you have to kind of be...

⁓ put your face forward, ⁓ so that people can recognize you. That brand awareness piece is so important. ⁓ I think there's a, people feel like if they're nervous, they just will hide behind this generic about page with nothing on it. And it's like, well then people can't make that connection. So it's a trade off if you decide not to. I think you lose some of that impact that you could have from a branding perspective.

Alex Hobcraft (19:47)

Yeah.

And can we also talk about the grumpy face? Like, why do people insist on putting up a grumpy face? Like, that is going to be compelling to work with you.

Vanessa Green (19:55)

you

Alex Hobcraft (19:59)

Like some of them, and not to generalize, but it is mostly men who do this. And they have this absolutely horrifically grumpy face and I'm like, I know you in person. If I didn't know you in person, I'm not sure if I'd be using your brand.

Vanessa Green (20:09)

Yeah.

Totally. Well, and I feel like it's like

I'm a serious professional businessman. Like, you know, you can take me seriously because I'm not smiling, which I feel like is like, you know, a bit old school in its approach because I think now we're like, I want to know that you're you have empathy and you're warm and welcoming. So, yeah, it's not a great approach for sure.

Alex Hobcraft (20:31)

No, definitely, definitely. Let's just shift up a little bit, because you are HubSpot certified. I've done a lot of HubSpot training too. I love that platform. But ⁓ you've helped people work through certain things with it. ⁓ how would you say a tool like HubSpot, it doesn't have to be HubSpot, but HubSpot is one of the better ones, how do they turn cold data into stories and things that businesses can use ⁓ in their...

Just how do they make it useful to justify some of these costs are enormous.

Vanessa Green (21:07)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a good question. I think so I've been using HubSpot for like 13 ish years now I started when I was working in the UK, I worked at an agency that was a HubSpot reseller. And that was like my first foray into the platform. And I remember just being blown away. like, this is so incredibly powerful. Like it was kind of marketing automation had just sort of like come on the scene and they were one of the first sort of companies to have a platform like this. Now it's huge. It's like sales and service and ⁓ ecom and ops and it's

whole bunch of different features. It's such a robust tool. ⁓ I think where I have kind of found my my niche within HubSpot and where I try and help clients, you know, my clients are not, ⁓ you know, not they're not giant companies, so they don't have huge budgets, but you can still get a lot of value even out of the kind of ⁓ the starter packages on HubSpot. And I think what it helps with, yeah, totally. Like, I think it's, you know, they can be very expensive. So if you go if you, you know, move up to higher level packages, you're going to be paying a lot more.

Alex Hobcraft (21:49)

Thank

for sure. Yeah.

Vanessa Green (22:08)

but there is still value to get out of those intro packages. I think, ⁓ you know, for a lot of clients, like I'm working with one right now and they're currently managing their database, like ⁓ in Excel spreadsheets, right? And it's like super ineffective. They're big enough that they need a proper process. They need a platform to manage this for them. You know, they want to have a better strategy around like sales forecasting and pipeline management and database management. And so I'm working on onboarding them right now and they're on the starter package. ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (22:29)

.

Vanessa Green (22:38)

crazy ⁓ investment. But where it helps the most, think is ⁓ what HubSpot is really powerful at is personalizing content and segmenting your messaging. So I think when it comes to email marketing, being able to segment your lists and write and create messaging that's targeting them specifically is super helpful. It's very difficult to do that if you don't have a CRM, because if you're trying to like segment an Excel sheet and upload it to your, you know, your platform for email marketing, it's like it's very messy. So HubSpot makes it clean.

where you can kind of say, okay, I want to write to, you only people that work in HR. And I'm going to send a promo email and just talk about the challenges that people in HR are having and how this product helps solve it. So that's, think, where like HubSpot adds a lot of value is really like in segmenting your data so that you can tell more relevant stories. Because the problem is if you're sending out batch emails to everybody, it's really hard to

Alex Hobcraft (23:12)

Okay. you

Vanessa Green (23:32)

write a message that's going to resonate with everyone. So that's where I think I've added a lot of value with my clients is like creating

creating campaigns specific to those groups, writing messaging that's relevant to them. But I mean, HubSpot has a ton of amazing features, like I think just, you know, just all of the automation it offers. It's also got, you know, everything has AI now, but it does have some pretty cool AI integrations, like it's got data, like

Alex Hobcraft (23:49)

Okay.

Vanessa Green (24:01)

enrichment. So if you have a data list, but you're missing like the first name or their address or their phone number, it'll basically like fill it out for you, which is kind of cool.

Alex Hobcraft (24:03)

.

Vanessa Green (24:08)

it's up to this point been a pretty laborious process to do that. a lot of like nerdy things that it's very good at but I'm a huge proponent of HubSpot and it's really helped me also manage my own pipeline and you my own client management as well.

Alex Hobcraft (24:22)

Yeah, and ⁓

Vanessa Green (24:23)

So yeah it's got definitely a place for small businesses even though sometimes the price of the bigger packages can be a bit overwhelming. Oh, are you still there?

Alex Hobcraft (24:33)

the other benefit of email marketing is the hidden benefit with email marketing. I love all these hidden benefits, is that when you are ⁓ segmenting your audience, you are allowing ⁓ Gmail or whatever provider to actually get more

directly into inboxes than you are by not getting into the inboxes. And so that's what I find most secretive is that people don't realize that when you segment something very specifically, you're going to get a higher open rate and more also specifically a higher engagement rate. And that's where HubSpot can really shine.

If I'm like, own Footprints Music in Hamilton, as you know, and if I'm sending a whole bunch of messages to parents whose children are guitar players and I'm sending them whole bunch of piano messaging, it's not gonna really do well and it's going to hurt, not help ⁓ your inbox opens. And it's a very, very huge indicator of how well your email marketing will be, not only effective, but how Gmail kind of

Vanessa Green (25:38)

for sure.

Alex Hobcraft (25:49)

sees you as a company, are you a spammer? And if so, you can be heavily docked getting into inboxes.

Vanessa Green (25:58)

Yeah, for sure, for sure. think it's, yeah, it just makes your marketing smarter and more streamlined. And I think it just makes you look kind of more professional, which a lot of businesses are looking for when they're doing their marketing, know, especially if they don't have a strong marketing background. I think HubSpot can help you kind of elevate your marketing to look more polished.

Alex Hobcraft (26:18)

Yeah, for sure. ⁓ Okay, so words do matter. We've come to that conclusion. It's important. ⁓ And how do you rate though, for something like BritBox, which was, or sorry, not BritBox, BrainBox, BritBox is obviously not the same thing on Amazon. ⁓ I said the A word. Anyways, BrainBox, which is a lab in Toronto. ⁓ They're a tech company.

Vanessa Green (26:33)

⁓ I love Redbox.

Alex Hobcraft (26:45)

It's got to be challenging to balance the tech stuff with the human stuff of getting that message across. So what are the toughest bridges that you've had for a client like that where it's very technically oriented, but you need this strong messaging to come out for the audience, by your client, what have you.

Vanessa Green (27:07)

Yeah, that's a good question. actually Brainbox was a really fun project to work on. ⁓ The owner is actually an old colleague of mine, like one of our first jobs together way back in the day. We worked together and he and I have like a very similar approach to marketing in that he was also very focused on, know, how are we helping our clients and how are we solving challenges for them? And I think, you know, they didn't really, none of the copy is really overly technical. It's really, again, about solving challenges for them and also how they are different in their market.

Alex Hobcraft (27:35)

. you

Vanessa Green (27:37)

So again, this kind of comes back to like how important your brand messaging and positioning is because you can talk about the technical capabilities you have, which I think are not unimportant. But if you're trying to influence and persuade, it's probably about what sets you apart. So probably a lot of the people in his team, I mean, they are very technically, ⁓ you know, ⁓ qualified group of people

that work with him. But I think what sets him apart is really like going back to things like he really understands his clients businesses and the team really understands the clients business.

Alex Hobcraft (28:01)

you .

Vanessa Green (28:07)

They look for creative solutions to the problems they're having. So they try not to offer like cookie cutter, you know, products and services. They try and really find solutions that are specific to them. So for example, ⁓ one of their clients and I wrote the case studies to one of their clients was Camp Robin Hood, which is a camp ⁓ in Toronto and they ⁓ were

having issues with their busing system. Like it was too complex and they had to pick up kids and drop them off every day. And they basically like created an app to help solve that problem.

So the client didn't come to them to say, I need this technical solution. They were like, this is my problem. How do I fix it? And their job is to have that understanding of like, we know the tools we have, we know ⁓ the technical toolbox that we have, what is the right solution for this specific challenge? And that was really what set them apart. Also things like the level of service and the quality of the team and that kind of thing. But it was really like,

Alex Hobcraft (28:42)

Mm.

Okay.

Vanessa Green (29:02)

their ability to solve challenges. And I think with a lot of tech companies, the features are important, but they're not the most important thing. When you're writing copy, it's like, do we persuade in a way that shows we add value, we understand our clients, and we have understood our market so that we can set ourselves apart? ⁓ And

Alex Hobcraft (29:07)

Okay.

Vanessa Green (29:21)

that to me is where the copywriting is super important, because I'm not a technical writer. I don't understand the ins and outs of app development from a technical perspective, but I know...

Alex Hobcraft (29:24)

. Okay.

Vanessa Green (29:30)

how to write copy that'll influence decision makers who need to decide which app development agency they're gonna hire. I think it's like, and again, obviously understanding the language and a lot of that came through interviews with the owner of Brain Box and he's very technically astute, but it was more about how do we talk to these people that maybe the people making the decisions aren't that technically ⁓ aware, but they know that they need help with the problem. So again, it kind of comes back to who's your audience because they might, even if you offer a technical,

solution, they might not be technically minded, that you might have to speak to them in a different way ⁓ in order to kind of ⁓ engage and persuade them.

Alex Hobcraft (30:08)

Yeah, and that is also kind of, as we've spoken about earlier, it is kind of a problem that.

If you are technically minded, if you are the owner of that company, you do have a generalization to talk more about the technical stuff that might lose your audience. Whereas someone from the outside perspective can be like, okay, hey, I mean, the bus example is perfect. Like, that's just like, here's a problem. And here's how we can solve that problem. you know, that's, ⁓ yeah, no, that's great. That's definitely ⁓ great. So.

Vanessa Green (30:24)

Totally.

Yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (30:42)

A lot of the themes from some of the other businesses that I've interviewed is just how sustainability and being green is important to them and how it's really helped their businesses. Democracy gets all of their stuff locally. Bardo tries to get their stuff all locally. ⁓ All their stuff is locally purchased, which helps with tariffs and all that we hear in the news about everything.

But you also worked with DECRA's sustainability pages. But again, it got into science-based targets. But has writing that kind of copy changed how you see Hamilton? Do you find that when you write copy, it changes your opinions about things? And especially in something like that, where there is this push for green. like Hamilton is starting to try and turn.

you know, old factories into something new and clean. And do you find that your copywriting has changed how you think about things?

Vanessa Green (31:44)

Yeah, totally. I I think that's part of the reason why I like writing about so many different ⁓ industries and topics, because I learn stuff all the time. ⁓ And I think same with when I was a journalist, it was the same thing. Like you learn so much every day when you're writing about different topics and different stories. So absolutely, changed. It educates me, which I think, you know, I'm a pretty curious person. So I love learning new things. And I love especially speaking to experts who like obviously know their know their stuff. ⁓ Decra was ⁓ a great project to work on. So they offer

basically certifications for companies for a whole bunch of things, but one of them is sort of like green energy certifications and ⁓ and having that kind of like, ⁓ you know, sustainability initiatives, those type of things, but but becoming actually certified. So a lot of companies can say we're doing, you know, we're being environmentally conscious or we're making, you green decisions. But like, this is how you get like legitimately certified for things like net zero science based targets, that kind of thing. ⁓ So it was really interesting. Like, I think it's very complex.

Alex Hobcraft (32:25)

.

Vanessa Green (32:45)

like obviously how these like, you know, carbon credits work and ⁓ your carbon footprint and understanding the impact that you have and not only your business, but the supply chains that you rely on, making sure that they're sustainable as well, who you're purchasing from. like the examples you gave were great, like, you know, it's not just necessarily like the decisions you're making as a business, but the suppliers you use and the decisions they're making. So it's really this ecosystem in terms of being sustainable. And I actually, another class

Alex Hobcraft (32:56)

Okay.

Vanessa Green (33:14)

I did work with was a this was like one of my first clients was a coffee roastery in Sioux lookout, which was like very interesting It was really cool Passion project for the owner, but he talked about like he literally flew to South America to meet the coffee makers the people who were sourcing the coffee beans He under he knew every single person in the chain ⁓ When he was you know from the farmers who were picking them to where they were processed to how they were shipped like every

Alex Hobcraft (33:17)

. Okay.

Vanessa Green (33:40)

single person he had met personally so that he could verify that you know, that was

⁓ an ethical, sustainable ⁓ supply chain that he was part of. you know, and that's a huge investment, like that's a huge investment in time and money, but it's important to him because that was he wanted to run a business that was, ⁓ you know, ethically minded and sustainable. So I think it really changed how I approach ⁓ talking to businesses that are focused on sustainability, because I think a lot of the time, you know, they talk about greenwashing and you might just slap a, you know, we're sustainable, but it's like, again, it goes back to like, we'll prove it. Do you have your certification?

Alex Hobcraft (33:48)

Wow.

.

Vanessa Green (34:14)

Do you understand how your suppliers are involved in sustainability and ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (34:15)

you

Vanessa Green (34:20)

and being ecologically conscious. So I think it's, you I've learned a lot and I think Hamilton, yeah, like it's definitely going through a period of change being a steel city, you know, and having that impact on the environment is like, how can we kind of ⁓ make positive impacts? And yeah, like, you know, reuse

and reclaim factories. One of the things I love in terms of like Hamilton's architecture is like when we keep old facades of high rises or we try and integrate new and old and do a lot of reuse.

Alex Hobcraft (34:41)

.

Vanessa Green (34:50)

⁓

I'm working with an architecture firm and they're very focused on reusing old materials as part of their business. you know, I think demo can be incredibly wasteful, but they're trying to find ways to use those materials in the new builds as well. And I think we as like consumers are really into that. love to, you know, antique shopping thriftings becoming bigger, think reclaiming, ⁓ you know, having pieces that have character and history, especially in a city like Hamilton that is like so has such a deep and rich

Alex Hobcraft (35:09)

Okay. Okay.

Vanessa Green (35:20)

history. like, how can we continue to, to salvage that and also be environmentally conscious?

So yeah, I think there's a real push, both on the consumer and business side. And then especially when it comes to how you write about your business being being mindful of that within your copy.

Alex Hobcraft (35:36)

Yeah, and what you touched on there is that your values are attracting your clients. And that's important and also kind of, I don't want to say an unspoken rule, but it's kind of an unspoken rule. Like when you put your values on your copy and in your business,

Vanessa Green (35:42)

Totally.

Alex Hobcraft (35:53)

people notice and while you might not be a trackable metric or a KPI, really does, it's a way of standing out without, just by being you, by being a genuine person that you are or the values that the business want to run.

Vanessa Green (36:13)

For sure, yeah. And I think backing those up, so like the coffee example's a good one. Like you can say you're sustainable, but this guy's proving it because he knows every single person along that supply chain. So again, it's like having values, but really backing them up and following through, I think is the big piece for sure.

Alex Hobcraft (36:31)

Yeah, nice, nice. Okay, so final question. So what trends do you see coming with copywriting, either through business voices or values, like we've spoken about digitally or on paper, because people forget that we still have paper and non-digital. But what are some trends that you see, if anything?

Vanessa Green (36:52)

⁓ Yeah, that's a question. mean, and totally on paper, like it's funny because I also write for Hamilton City Magazine, which has a ⁓ version. So if yeah, just a little plug for Hamilton City Magazine. If you aren't subscribed, you should. It's a great arts and culture magazine in Hamilton. ⁓ And it's actually like the print version is beautiful. So yes, can't forget about print. ⁓ But I think it's a good question on trends. Like I think, you know, obviously, AI is like so huge right now. And I think ⁓ we're really like learning as we go with it. And I use it a lot in my

work, but I think there was an idea, you know, even six months ago, it's like, they're just going to completely replace copywriters and, you know, content marketers and, you know, their jobs are done. And I think we're coming back around like the pendulum swinging the other way to be like, actually, everyone can tell when it's just like pure AI slop and you still need a human being to like, edit and refine and have some discernment and judgment over the copy. So I think there'll be a push back towards like more human focused copy. ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (37:38)

.

Vanessa Green (37:52)

not a rejection of AI entirely, like, you know, we will become again, we are skeptical. So I think we'll become more skeptical of writing that doesn't sound like it was written by a human.

And we'll want to integrate that human in the loop approach to AI usage going forward. I think that's one big trend. Another one, I think, again, is like smaller businesses really investing in this these types of like social proof. So case studies really amping up things like reviews, testimonials. One of the things

when I do website projects is like really focusing on their home pages like try not to like try and back up everything you're saying with all of this social proof so showcase studies show testimonials show your ratings and it's forcing I think a lot of businesses to invest in that ⁓ because it's not enough to just say you're great I think people are really looking for that proof and I think a lot of businesses are gonna have to kind of come through and find ways to do that so they can gain the trust of their their audience

Alex Hobcraft (38:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, back to the AI because it is enormous just quickly. Just some people are saying that we are in an AI bubble and that it will burst. Kind of similar to the dot com at the late 90s, early 2000s. So yeah, I definitely see that happening for sure. Well, Vanessa, it's always a pleasure to speak with you. We always have great conversations and ⁓ you are part of Greenlight Content Marketing, which I will put in the show notes how everyone can get in touch with you.

Vanessa Green (39:00)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (39:21)

And thank you for your time and I hope you have a great day.

Vanessa Green (39:25)

Yeah, thanks for having me. You too. We'll chat soon. Okay. Bye, Alex.

Alex Hobcraft (39:28)

Yeah, sounds good. Take care.

Welcome everyone to Local Grit. Today I'm with Vanessa Green and if you have overlooked copywriting in your business, you've missed out on probably one of the most effective tools for the digital and non-digital marketing toolbox. Vanessa Green is the founder of Greenlight Content, is Hamilton's premier copywriter and content creator. ⁓ And as written on her website, writing that gets to the heart of your business. Vanessa, welcome to Local Grit.

Vanessa Green (39:59)

Hi, thanks for having me, Alex. Glad to be here.

Alex Hobcraft (40:03)

So you grew up in Hamilton, you got your degree in the East Coast, I believe, and then you landed here in Hamilton, which is a city pretty much well known for its grit. Do you find that that grit comes through with the clients that you choose and how you write? ⁓ For example, like when you're writing for a local organization like the Hamilton Literacy Council, do you try to have some grit into that or do you just try and write what's best for them?

Vanessa Green (40:30)

Yeah, that's a great question. just to clarify, I was born in Hamilton and moved here like seven years ago, but I didn't actually grow up here, which I'm quite sad about. I kind of wish I did. I'm like a wannabe Hamilton kid, but I'm making the most of it now. ⁓ But yeah, it's a great question. Like I think yeah, Hamilton is super gritty. It's, it's what I love about the city. And I think like that is part of my approach to like I try and be very honest and direct ⁓ in my writing. And I think that's just, you know, that's best

Alex Hobcraft (40:51)

you you

Vanessa Green (41:00)

practice in general, even though it is kind of reflective of the way Hamilton is as a city. ⁓ I think Hamiltonians are kind of like very no bullshit. have like, you know, they like things to be clear and simple, and they don't want any fluff. And so I try and use that approach in my my

Alex Hobcraft (41:17)

Okay. Okay.

Vanessa Green (41:17)

marketing and my writing, when I'm working for clients. And I think yeah, like just keeping it kind of like no no nonsense and grounded and really human. I think that's what a lot of marketing is kind of missing. Like we are

you know, there's like too much jargon and fluff and I think just keeping it really authentic even though that word it's also been kind of overused but I do think that the, you know, idea behind that is still what should guide a lot

of marketing today especially when a lot of it doesn't sound very human. So, yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (41:47)

Yeah,

it does. It does. ⁓ I've advised many clients on their marketing and it's hard to get that messaging of how they are in person onto their website. ⁓ Now, funny story, not funny story, but we both worked for Digital Main Street while you did programs for City of Hamilton, especially during COVID for City of Main Street.

That's where I first learned about how your approach was and I just loved how you just had exactly what you just said. It's very realistic, very simple language that people do try to over complicate a lot of messaging. So ⁓ when you came up with the workshop names that actually got small business owners into the door, ⁓ what were those local...

businesses really up against, this is during COVID, trying to go digital, and how did your words give them a push?

Vanessa Green (42:40)

Yeah, that's great question. So yeah, was doing workshops. I've been doing them for about four years with like the City of Hamilton, the Hamilton Business Centre. And at the time it was supported by Digital Main Street. And I think the idea was really, you know, a lot of small businesses don't have big marketing budgets. They're not going to outsource to like an expensive agency. Like how can they kind of get it done in-house? And even if they were maybe going to hire someone, how do they know what good looks like when it comes to copy and messaging and that kind of thing? So the idea was really trying to remove some of that like

Alex Hobcraft (43:01)

. you

Vanessa Green (43:10)

overwhelm that I think a lot of businesses who don't have a marketing background, business owners kind of experience. So the names of the workshops were meant to just really kind of, again, be simple and direct. So I think the one I've run the most, probably like a dozen times with the city

of Hamilton and Digital Main Street is how to write high impact copy for your business, even if you're not a copywriter. And so that was really like, I think because it kind of said what it was on the tin, there was no fluffy jargon and it also

Alex Hobcraft (43:30)

. you

Vanessa Green (43:40)

kind of helped, you know. ⁓

Give them that confidence, like you don't have to be a professional copywriter to like write really strong messaging for your business that will appeal to your audience and reflect your brand. So I think

we just tried to keep the messaging and the titles really simple, but like still compelling. And it's funny because one of the things in the writing workshop, the copywriting workshop I talk about is how important headlines are, how important like your subject line or your blog headline or your headline on your website, like those things are the most important because it's the first

Alex Hobcraft (43:55)

you .

Vanessa Green (44:12)

thing people see and if they lose interest then you've lost them and it doesn't matter what else is in the email or on your website like they're never gonna read it so we talked about the importance of spending a lot of time like that hook and really bringing them in and keeping them engaged but it's interesting because another thing I talk about in the workshop is it's a quote actually from ⁓ from Einstein of all people that basically says like if you don't if you can't explain something ⁓ simply

Alex Hobcraft (44:22)

Okay.

Vanessa Green (44:42)

you don't understand it well enough. And I think about that a lot because, you know, it is very difficult to simplify the complex. It's literally why people hire marketing

experts and agencies to take these like really technical ideas and distill them into something simple that will appeal to their audience. ⁓ And so I think there is sometimes ⁓ this desire to like, you know, write in really complex ways or try and sound clever or, you know, try and big up your copy and write, you know, beautiful prose or something like that. And I think

Alex Hobcraft (44:51)

you

Vanessa Green (45:12)

you know, it really comes down to just like understanding the core tenets of what you're offering and how that offers a solution to your audience and simply stating that, which is a lot more difficult than it sounds.

Alex Hobcraft (45:25)

It really is, but I do find that what a lot of people do, I remember helping this one client, she sold organic cheese cloth and her writing was just so, it was trying to sound professional and at the same time it didn't sound professional.

And I said, you know, I've met with you a couple of times and I'm like, your playfulness and your humor and stuff, that's not coming through on your website. And she literally said to me, you're allowed to do that. And it's funny how people think that you have to follow these rules that they don't really know about that we've learned in maybe grade school about grammar and how to do, but that's not copywriting, is it?

Vanessa Green (46:07)

Sure.

For sure, no. And it's an interesting point because I think that is kind of a default. We're like, well, it's like we're penning a high school English essay. And it's like, but that's not what people want to read. And like, you know, if you put yourself in their shoes, like that's not what you would want to read on the receiving end either. ⁓ So I think we talk a lot about just finding that human emotional connection when you write. Like even if you're in B2B, like I write for a lot of B2B clients, it's like there's still a human being making that decision at the end of the day.

Alex Hobcraft (46:33)

.

Vanessa Green (46:39)

So how do you appeal to their emotions? How do you recognize them as a human who's in a challenging position and you're going to help solve it? know, thinking about things like offering relief or reducing

Alex Hobcraft (46:47)

you

Vanessa Green (46:48)

stress and, know, sometimes we get hung up on features and, ⁓ you know, technical aspects. But really, it's kind of like how can you connect with that emotional part of them, whether they're a consumer or, you you're selling to a business?

Alex Hobcraft (47:03)

Yeah, if you can just, I read this the other day, if you could just show how useful you can be to someone, that is far more effective than flowery words. I know that some people try to get into the keywords for the SEO stuff, which is fair, like I get, I understand that. ⁓ But it does have to, I think simplicity is best. ⁓

You've worked with a lot of different types of businesses. So you've worked for like Vetster, which was really interesting to learn about. They do telemedicine for businesses as a perk, for their employees as a perk. You've worked for a Brizzo food metrics, which helps food supplies make smarter moves. ⁓ Food suppliers, sorry. And then IPEX, which you wrote a white paper and case studies for plumbers and builders, which I find most interesting are the case studies. But they're all very different. How do you...

your copywriting for such diversity and then how do you use your case studies which I find is something that not a lot of people really think about with their marketing and copywriting.

Vanessa Green (48:04)

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, a lot of copywriters and content marketers, you know, niche down, they'll just pick one sector industry to work in. And I didn't do that because I really like learning about, you know, all these different industries and business owners and audiences. ⁓ So I think, yeah, for sure. And I mean, like, not, you know, not to dismiss people that do niche down because there's totally a need for that. And I think I understand why people do it. But and I think just kind of like, for me, leaning on my journalism background, like I, you know, every day as a journalist, you're learning about a new topic and you kind

Alex Hobcraft (48:19)

Me too,

Vanessa Green (48:34)

of have to become an expert or interview the experts and learn as much as you can. So that is kind of what motivated me to kind of not be specific in terms of like my sectors

that I specialize in. But I think the approach I take is really again, like kind of goes back to my journalism background is that, you know, it's really about asking questions interviewing, like I, for all of the work I do, I interview my clients. So I would never, you know, just take a brief and go away and write it like a lot of it is about understanding their business, asking them questions and asking their

Alex Hobcraft (49:03)

you

Vanessa Green (49:04)

clients questions, which is where case studies really come into the mix. And again, you know, even though those three businesses that you mentioned are very different, like the approach and the framework I use is the same, it's really about understanding the audience pain points, how their solution helps them, what makes this those businesses different in their market. ⁓ So it's really about, you know,

Alex Hobcraft (49:05)

you

Vanessa Green (49:25)

asking a lot of questions, ⁓ understanding like goals and objectives of their audience. And then obviously, you still need to understand the specific language that they use.

Alex Hobcraft (49:29)

. you

Vanessa Green (49:34)

within their sectors. But a lot of it is really about understanding audience need, ⁓ and helping them show how their solution kind of solves for that. ⁓ And I think that's, know, case studies have become so popular in terms of like the work that I'm doing for clients over the last few months, because it's kind of like letting someone else do the marketing for you.

I think we're becoming increasingly skeptical of people making claims. Because, you know, anyone can say anything on their website, but like, can you get someone to back it up for

And that's where case studies come in, because you're like, here's an actual example of how our solution helped a business. ⁓ You know, we put it in context, and we've got a great testimonial, and they're kind of doing that, selling for us. So, you know, it's, and I apply the same approach to, you know, any, any customer I work with, or any client I work with, because ⁓ effectively, that's what you're doing is showcasing value. And then, you know, obviously, the language, once you get down to like, the nitty gritty needs to reflect that sector they work in. But the

Alex Hobcraft (50:10)

Okay. Okay.

Vanessa Green (50:34)

overarching approach is kind of still the same.

Alex Hobcraft (50:37)

Yeah, and the hidden bonus in that, which not a lot of people realize with case studies, is that ⁓ you're able to get companies to talk to their clients. And it's amazing how many businesses don't speak to their clients, who I've worked with. And I know that some of it is they feel like they're bothering them or they're... But you don't understand, like when you get that information from clients, you are helping your clients by having a better service.

And then that case study becomes that proof, as you said, for future clients. So in many ways, that work is not just you writing the words or getting the words. It's getting the businesses to do a little bit more of the heavy lifting or a little bit of the hard work at first. But the payoffs are truly phenomenal. ⁓ I just heard just recently, Rand Fishkin, who's part of Spark Turo. I don't know if you know him. He's a marketer.

Vanessa Green (51:35)

Yep.

Alex Hobcraft (51:36)

⁓ It's a of a nerdy. And he was saying the other benefit that case studies have is because with this huge push with AI, what happens is that it allows your SEO to do work for you because these case studies are what they're looking for to give to customers. And so it changes how people are searching in a certain way because people are specifically asking these questions that are answered in the case studies that you do. ⁓

And so, ⁓ yeah, I think that the case studies is the future, and I think that they are super, super important, definitely. ⁓

Vanessa Green (52:15)

Yeah, so

I was gonna say on that, like they're real powerhouse. And I think the other benefit they add is like, you know, lot of companies can't afford to do like market research. ⁓ But K-Cities kind of are a form of market research in a way, you know, you're asking questions about what did they like about your service? What didn't they like? What were they looking for in a provider? You know, what were the results like? And then you also get a testimonial from them that you can use in your marketing as well. So like, there's all these different benefits to this one piece of content that allows it to kind of, you know, you can kind of use it in all these different

Alex Hobcraft (52:24)

Right.

Vanessa Green (52:45)

places, both for research purposes, but also like for marketing purposes. So I just wanted to throw that out there because I think case studies have like, they're, they're a bit of an investment, but they have a huge payoff, I think in terms of how you can use them.

Alex Hobcraft (52:52)

Mm. Agreed,

agreed, totally. So, I mean, just, you know, going off on that, what would you say is the biggest mistake?

that clients make with their copywriting. I'll give you some of mine that I've noticed as a non-professional copywriter and as general digital marketer, but what's one that you see often?

Vanessa Green (53:16)

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, ⁓ so I think the first one is really like...

a lot of clients, if they have to do their own copywriting, will just sit and start writing. And to me, the copywriting process is 90 % research, 90 % prep, 90 % interviews, 90%. The writing part is almost the last thing, and it's almost not the smallest thing because it's important, but there's so much work you have to do before you could even write one word of copy. So I think not maybe investing in that research piece. And I think when clients do that, they often just sit and start writing. They're like, well, I'll make some assumptions.

or I'll write about what I think is important. And like that kind of copy never really converts because it's not based on the needs of their audience. So I think writing from their perspective rather than what is relevant to their audience is one of the biggest mistakes. ⁓ And the other one for me is really ⁓ not backing up what they say. So like when I am interviewing clients, especially for things like website copy, you know, they'll say, well, you know, we're, ⁓ you know, like the number one ⁓ heavy haul trucking company in Hamilton. And I'm like, okay, how?

Why? Like, do you have awards? Do you have reviews? Are you the highest rated on Google? You know, have you

Alex Hobcraft (54:27)

Yeah.

Vanessa Green (54:28)

like, you know, are you working with like top tier clients? Like, how? And I think a lot of clients, you know, it's a great exercise when I do it, because it forces them to have to figure out how they can back up what they're saying. So whether that is like, okay, well, yeah, actually, we do have a lot of reviews, but we don't really talk about them. But we should, you know, mention that on the website, or, you know, we've worked with over 500 clients, but we've never really talked about that. So it makes them kind of think about how do

Alex Hobcraft (54:29)

.

Vanessa Green (54:53)

back up what you're saying? How do you prove, know, answer that like how kind of

question? And a lot of clients, I don't think really have the follow through, like they make a lot of claims, but then they can't really back it up. And I think copy needs to really have that kind of proof behind it to be to be impactful. Because again, we're like, we're very skeptical people, we're very dubious, and we need proof. And we want, ⁓ we want you to prove, you know, that you're what you're saying is true.

Alex Hobcraft (55:19)

Yeah, no, definitely. For me, I think the number one, and this is mostly from the sole openers than from the bigger businesses,

is how they miswrite the about me page or about you page. And really they just give you, was born in 1941 and I went to this college and I actually got this accolade. And if you're a writer, that could be understandable, but really your about you page is how your skills help your client. People actually don't really give a shit about you. They wanna know how you're going to solve their problem. And...

Vanessa Green (55:50)

Yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (55:54)

And so I find that a lot of people misuse the About Me page or the About page and don't really, they're just very literal about it. And if you're strategic, like you mentioned before, and you write your About, the About page so that it's just like, hey, I have this education, these are the people I've worked with, and these are the results I've got, far more effective marketing than by just giving your history of your life.

Vanessa Green (56:22)

Yeah, mean, so I partially agree with that, although I do kind of feel like in my mind, your whole website should be doing that. So your whole website should be like, what are my skills? What's my unique selling proposition? know, how am I going to help you? And here's proof. I do kind of feel like the about page to me, sometimes I feel like it does need a bit more personality and it does need a bit more personal information because I think like, you know, I think the way buyers are today, like we I think things like support local, like I

Alex Hobcraft (56:52)

Hmm.

Vanessa Green (56:52)

at things like support Canadian businesses, especially right now. Like people like to understand there's a human behind it. And so I agree, like I don't, you don't need to go into like super in-depth detail about every, you know, ⁓

milestone of your life. But I do think having a little bit of personality can help make that feel a bit more human. ⁓ One thing I think on about pages that I don't love is like when there is no information about the team at all or the person behind it, sometimes it'll just be like a mission statement, which is fine. ⁓

But it's like, but who are, is there a face to the business? Is there people that I can look up on LinkedIn? Like, are you legit? And to me, I talk to the clients a lot about that is like, don't be afraid to like put your face on your website. Like it makes you more trustworthy because there's a real human being

behind it, you know? So totally agree with you, but I also think there's an opportunity to almost make it more human while you're showing that value that you can provide at the same time.

Alex Hobcraft (57:45)

That's a great tip. I hadn't looked at it from that aspect. You do need the humanity. It's funny that you say about the picture because it's something I advise people all the time. It's like why you don't have a picture. There was one story of this designer who I helped and she did ⁓ people's spaces. She did beautiful work. Her work was amazing. But on her about

Vanessa Green (57:57)

Yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (58:05)

About me page was a picture of her in the corner in the desk and it was the back of her head at her desk. And I'm, and I was like, what's, what are you just trying to say here? And as soon as I said it, she was like, my God, I get it now. Like sometimes they need that being pointed out by, but, you do need to have a certain amount of face and, and, and, and the human element. So, ⁓ I totally think that's great. Yeah.

Vanessa Green (58:12)

So fun. Yeah.

Yeah.

for sure.

For sure. Yeah. And

I think people are a bit nervous about like, it's hard when you run your own business because you do have to do that branding piece, right? Where you have to be the face of your organization. And some people hate that. I didn't love it when I started and I've become more comfortable with it because I'm like, this, you have to. Like, I think if you're gonna run your own business, you have to kind of be...

⁓ put your face forward, ⁓ so that people can recognize you. That brand awareness piece is so important. ⁓ I think there's a, people feel like if they're nervous, they just will hide behind this generic about page with nothing on it. And it's like, well then people can't make that connection. So it's a trade off if you decide not to. I think you lose some of that impact that you could have from a branding perspective.

Alex Hobcraft (59:12)

Yeah.

And can we also talk about the grumpy face? Like, why do people insist on putting up a grumpy face? Like, that is going to be compelling to work with you.

Vanessa Green (59:21)

you

Alex Hobcraft (59:24)

Like some of them, and not to generalize, but it is mostly men who do this. And they have this absolutely horrifically grumpy face and I'm like, I know you in person. If I didn't know you in person, I'm not sure if I'd be using your brand.

Vanessa Green (59:34)

Yeah.

Totally. Well, and I feel like it's like

I'm a serious professional businessman. Like, you know, you can take me seriously because I'm not smiling, which I feel like is like, you know, a bit old school in its approach because I think now we're like, I want to know that you're you have empathy and you're warm and welcoming. So, yeah, it's not a great approach for sure.

Alex Hobcraft (59:56)

No, definitely, definitely. Let's just shift up a little bit, because you are HubSpot certified. I've done a lot of HubSpot training too. I love that platform. But ⁓ you've helped people work through certain things with it. ⁓ how would you say a tool like HubSpot, it doesn't have to be HubSpot, but HubSpot is one of the better ones, how do they turn cold data into stories and things that businesses can use ⁓ in their...

Just how do they make it useful to justify some of these costs are enormous.

Vanessa Green (1:00:33)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a good question. I think so I've been using HubSpot for like 13 ish years now I started when I was working in the UK, I worked at an agency that was a HubSpot reseller. And that was like my first foray into the platform. And I remember just being blown away. like, this is so incredibly powerful. Like it was kind of marketing automation had just sort of like come on the scene and they were one of the first sort of companies to have a platform like this. Now it's huge. It's like sales and service and ⁓ ecom and ops and it's

whole bunch of different features. It's such a robust tool. ⁓ I think where I have kind of found my my niche within HubSpot and where I try and help clients, you know, my clients are not, ⁓ you know, not they're not giant companies, so they don't have huge budgets, but you can still get a lot of value even out of the kind of ⁓ the starter packages on HubSpot. And I think what it helps with, yeah, totally. Like, I think it's, you know, they can be very expensive. So if you go if you, you know, move up to higher level packages, you're going to be paying a lot more.

Alex Hobcraft (1:01:15)

Thank

for sure. Yeah.

Vanessa Green (1:01:34)

but there is still value to get out of those intro packages. I think, ⁓ you know, for a lot of clients, like I'm working with one right now and they're currently managing their database, like ⁓ in Excel spreadsheets, right? And it's like super ineffective. They're big enough that they need a proper process. They need a platform to manage this for them. You know, they want to have a better strategy around like sales forecasting and pipeline management and database management. And so I'm working on onboarding them right now and they're on the starter package. ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (1:01:55)

.

Vanessa Green (1:02:04)

crazy ⁓ investment. But where it helps the most, think is ⁓ what HubSpot is really powerful at is personalizing content and segmenting your messaging. So I think when it comes to email marketing, being able to segment your lists and write and create messaging that's targeting them specifically is super helpful. It's very difficult to do that if you don't have a CRM, because if you're trying to like segment an Excel sheet and upload it to your, you know, your platform for email marketing, it's like it's very messy. So HubSpot makes it clean.

where you can kind of say, okay, I want to write to, you only people that work in HR. And I'm going to send a promo email and just talk about the challenges that people in HR are having and how this product helps solve it. So that's, think, where like HubSpot adds a lot of value is really like in segmenting your data so that you can tell more relevant stories. Because the problem is if you're sending out batch emails to everybody, it's really hard to

Alex Hobcraft (1:02:37)

Okay. you

Vanessa Green (1:02:58)

write a message that's going to resonate with everyone. So that's where I think I've added a lot of value with my clients is like creating

creating campaigns specific to those groups, writing messaging that's relevant to them. But I mean, HubSpot has a ton of amazing features, like I think just, you know, just all of the automation it offers. It's also got, you know, everything has AI now, but it does have some pretty cool AI integrations, like it's got data, like

Alex Hobcraft (1:03:15)

Okay.

Vanessa Green (1:03:26)

enrichment. So if you have a data list, but you're missing like the first name or their address or their phone number, it'll basically like fill it out for you, which is kind of cool.

Alex Hobcraft (1:03:28)

.

Vanessa Green (1:03:33)

it's up to this point been a pretty laborious process to do that. a lot of like nerdy things that it's very good at but I'm a huge proponent of HubSpot and it's really helped me also manage my own pipeline and you my own client management as well.

Alex Hobcraft (1:03:48)

Yeah, and ⁓

Vanessa Green (1:03:48)

So yeah it's got definitely a place for small businesses even though sometimes the price of the bigger packages can be a bit overwhelming. Oh, are you still there?

Alex Hobcraft (1:03:58)

the other benefit of email marketing is the hidden benefit with email marketing. I love all these hidden benefits, is that when you are ⁓ segmenting your audience, you are allowing ⁓ Gmail or whatever provider to actually get more

directly into inboxes than you are by not getting into the inboxes. And so that's what I find most secretive is that people don't realize that when you segment something very specifically, you're going to get a higher open rate and more also specifically a higher engagement rate. And that's where HubSpot can really shine.

If I'm like, own Footprints Music in Hamilton, as you know, and if I'm sending a whole bunch of messages to parents whose children are guitar players and I'm sending them whole bunch of piano messaging, it's not gonna really do well and it's going to hurt, not help ⁓ your inbox opens. And it's a very, very huge indicator of how well your email marketing will be, not only effective, but how Gmail kind of

Vanessa Green (1:05:03)

for sure.

Alex Hobcraft (1:05:14)

sees you as a company, are you a spammer? And if so, you can be heavily docked getting into inboxes.

Vanessa Green (1:05:24)

Yeah, for sure, for sure. think it's, yeah, it just makes your marketing smarter and more streamlined. And I think it just makes you look kind of more professional, which a lot of businesses are looking for when they're doing their marketing, know, especially if they don't have a strong marketing background. I think HubSpot can help you kind of elevate your marketing to look more polished.

Alex Hobcraft (1:05:44)

Yeah, for sure. ⁓ Okay, so words do matter. We've come to that conclusion. It's important. ⁓ And how do you rate though, for something like BritBox, which was, or sorry, not BritBox, BrainBox, BritBox is obviously not the same thing on Amazon. ⁓ I said the A word. Anyways, BrainBox, which is a lab in Toronto. ⁓ They're a tech company.

Vanessa Green (1:05:58)

⁓ I love Redbox.

Alex Hobcraft (1:06:11)

It's got to be challenging to balance the tech stuff with the human stuff of getting that message across. So what are the toughest bridges that you've had for a client like that where it's very technically oriented, but you need this strong messaging to come out for the audience, by your client, what have you.

Vanessa Green (1:06:30)

Yeah, that's a good question. actually Brainbox was a really fun project to work on. ⁓ The owner is actually an old colleague of mine, like one of our first jobs together way back in the day. We worked together and he and I have like a very similar approach to marketing in that he was also very focused on, know, how are we helping our clients and how are we solving challenges for them? And I think, you know, they didn't really, none of the copy is really overly technical. It's really, again, about solving challenges for them and also how they are different in their market.

Alex Hobcraft (1:06:58)

. you

Vanessa Green (1:07:00)

So again, this kind of comes back to like how important your brand messaging and positioning is because you can talk about the technical capabilities you have, which I think are not unimportant. But if you're trying to influence and persuade, it's probably about what sets you apart. So probably a lot of the people in his team, I mean, they are very technically, ⁓ you know, ⁓ qualified group of people

that work with him. But I think what sets him apart is really like going back to things like he really understands his clients businesses and the team really understands the clients business.

Alex Hobcraft (1:07:24)

you .

Vanessa Green (1:07:30)

They look for creative solutions to the problems they're having. So they try not to offer like cookie cutter, you know, products and services. They try and really find solutions that are specific to them. So for example, ⁓ one of their clients and I wrote the case studies to one of their clients was Camp Robin Hood, which is a camp ⁓ in Toronto and they ⁓ were

having issues with their busing system. Like it was too complex and they had to pick up kids and drop them off every day. And they basically like created an app to help solve that problem.

So the client didn't come to them to say, I need this technical solution. They were like, this is my problem. How do I fix it? And their job is to have that understanding of like, we know the tools we have, we know ⁓ the technical toolbox that we have, what is the right solution for this specific challenge? And that was really what set them apart. Also things like the level of service and the quality of the team and that kind of thing. But it was really like,

Alex Hobcraft (1:08:05)

Mm.

Okay.

Vanessa Green (1:08:25)

their ability to solve challenges. And I think with a lot of tech companies, the features are important, but they're not the most important thing. When you're writing copy, it's like, do we persuade in a way that shows we add value, we understand our clients, and we have understood our market so that we can set ourselves apart? ⁓ And

Alex Hobcraft (1:08:30)

Okay.

Vanessa Green (1:08:44)

that to me is where the copywriting is super important, because I'm not a technical writer. I don't understand the ins and outs of app development from a technical perspective, but I know...

Alex Hobcraft (1:08:47)

. Okay.

Vanessa Green (1:08:53)

how to write copy that'll influence decision makers who need to decide which app development agency they're gonna hire. I think it's like, and again, obviously understanding the language and a lot of that came through interviews with the owner of Brain Box and he's very technically astute, but it was more about how do we talk to these people that maybe the people making the decisions aren't that technically ⁓ aware, but they know that they need help with the problem. So again, it kind of comes back to who's your audience because they might, even if you offer a technical,

solution, they might not be technically minded, that you might have to speak to them in a different way ⁓ in order to kind of ⁓ engage and persuade them.

Alex Hobcraft (1:09:31)

Yeah, and that is also kind of, as we've spoken about earlier, it is kind of a problem that.

If you are technically minded, if you are the owner of that company, you do have a generalization to talk more about the technical stuff that might lose your audience. Whereas someone from the outside perspective can be like, okay, hey, I mean, the bus example is perfect. Like, that's just like, here's a problem. And here's how we can solve that problem. you know, that's, ⁓ yeah, no, that's great. That's definitely ⁓ great. So.

Vanessa Green (1:09:47)

Totally.

Yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (1:10:05)

A lot of the themes from some of the other businesses that I've interviewed is just how sustainability and being green is important to them and how it's really helped their businesses. Democracy gets all of their stuff locally. Bardo tries to get their stuff all locally. ⁓ All their stuff is locally purchased, which helps with tariffs and all that we hear in the news about everything.

But you also worked with DECRA's sustainability pages. But again, it got into science-based targets. But has writing that kind of copy changed how you see Hamilton? Do you find that when you write copy, it changes your opinions about things? And especially in something like that, where there is this push for green. like Hamilton is starting to try and turn.

you know, old factories into something new and clean. And do you find that your copywriting has changed how you think about things?

Vanessa Green (1:11:06)

Yeah, totally. I I think that's part of the reason why I like writing about so many different ⁓ industries and topics, because I learn stuff all the time. ⁓ And I think same with when I was a journalist, it was the same thing. Like you learn so much every day when you're writing about different topics and different stories. So absolutely, changed. It educates me, which I think, you know, I'm a pretty curious person. So I love learning new things. And I love especially speaking to experts who like obviously know their know their stuff. ⁓ Decra was ⁓ a great project to work on. So they offer

basically certifications for companies for a whole bunch of things, but one of them is sort of like green energy certifications and ⁓ and having that kind of like, ⁓ you know, sustainability initiatives, those type of things, but but becoming actually certified. So a lot of companies can say we're doing, you know, we're being environmentally conscious or we're making, you green decisions. But like, this is how you get like legitimately certified for things like net zero science based targets, that kind of thing. ⁓ So it was really interesting. Like, I think it's very complex.

Alex Hobcraft (1:11:47)

.

Vanessa Green (1:12:06)

like obviously how these like, you know, carbon credits work and ⁓ your carbon footprint and understanding the impact that you have and not only your business, but the supply chains that you rely on, making sure that they're sustainable as well, who you're purchasing from. like the examples you gave were great, like, you know, it's not just necessarily like the decisions you're making as a business, but the suppliers you use and the decisions they're making. So it's really this ecosystem in terms of being sustainable. And I actually, another class

Alex Hobcraft (1:12:17)

Okay.

Vanessa Green (1:12:36)

I did work with was a this was like one of my first clients was a coffee roastery in Sioux lookout, which was like very interesting It was really cool Passion project for the owner, but he talked about like he literally flew to South America to meet the coffee makers the people who were sourcing the coffee beans He under he knew every single person in the chain ⁓ When he was you know from the farmers who were picking them to where they were processed to how they were shipped like every

Alex Hobcraft (1:12:39)

. Okay.

Vanessa Green (1:13:02)

single person he had met personally so that he could verify that you know, that was

⁓ an ethical, sustainable ⁓ supply chain that he was part of. you know, and that's a huge investment, like that's a huge investment in time and money, but it's important to him because that was he wanted to run a business that was, ⁓ you know, ethically minded and sustainable. So I think it really changed how I approach ⁓ talking to businesses that are focused on sustainability, because I think a lot of the time, you know, they talk about greenwashing and you might just slap a, you know, we're sustainable, but it's like, again, it goes back to like, we'll prove it. Do you have your certification?

Alex Hobcraft (1:13:09)

Wow.

.

Vanessa Green (1:13:36)

Do you understand how your suppliers are involved in sustainability and ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (1:13:36)

you

Vanessa Green (1:13:42)

and being ecologically conscious. So I think it's, you I've learned a lot and I think Hamilton, yeah, like it's definitely going through a period of change being a steel city, you know, and having that impact on the environment is like, how can we kind of ⁓ make positive impacts? And yeah, like, you know, reuse

and reclaim factories. One of the things I love in terms of like Hamilton's architecture is like when we keep old facades of high rises or we try and integrate new and old and do a lot of reuse.

Alex Hobcraft (1:14:03)

.

Vanessa Green (1:14:11)

⁓

I'm working with an architecture firm and they're very focused on reusing old materials as part of their business. you know, I think demo can be incredibly wasteful, but they're trying to find ways to use those materials in the new builds as well. And I think we as like consumers are really into that. love to, you know, antique shopping thriftings becoming bigger, think reclaiming, ⁓ you know, having pieces that have character and history, especially in a city like Hamilton that is like so has such a deep and rich

Alex Hobcraft (1:14:30)

Okay. Okay.

Vanessa Green (1:14:41)

history. like, how can we continue to, to salvage that and also be environmentally conscious?

So yeah, I think there's a real push, both on the consumer and business side. And then especially when it comes to how you write about your business being being mindful of that within your copy.

Alex Hobcraft (1:14:57)

Yeah, and what you touched on there is that your values are attracting your clients. And that's important and also kind of, I don't want to say an unspoken rule, but it's kind of an unspoken rule. Like when you put your values on your copy and in your business,

Vanessa Green (1:15:04)

Totally.

Alex Hobcraft (1:15:15)

people notice and while you might not be a trackable metric or a KPI, really does, it's a way of standing out without, just by being you, by being a genuine person that you are or the values that the business want to run.

Vanessa Green (1:15:35)

For sure, yeah. And I think backing those up, so like the coffee example's a good one. Like you can say you're sustainable, but this guy's proving it because he knows every single person along that supply chain. So again, it's like having values, but really backing them up and following through, I think is the big piece for sure.

Alex Hobcraft (1:15:52)

Yeah, nice, nice. Okay, so final question. So what trends do you see coming with copywriting, either through business voices or values, like we've spoken about digitally or on paper, because people forget that we still have paper and non-digital. But what are some trends that you see, if anything?

Vanessa Green (1:16:12)

⁓ Yeah, that's a question. mean, and totally on paper, like it's funny because I also write for Hamilton City Magazine, which has a ⁓ version. So if yeah, just a little plug for Hamilton City Magazine. If you aren't subscribed, you should. It's a great arts and culture magazine in Hamilton. ⁓ And it's actually like the print version is beautiful. So yes, can't forget about print. ⁓ But I think it's a good question on trends. Like I think, you know, obviously, AI is like so huge right now. And I think ⁓ we're really like learning as we go with it. And I use it a lot in my

work, but I think there was an idea, you know, even six months ago, it's like, they're just going to completely replace copywriters and, you know, content marketers and, you know, their jobs are done. And I think we're coming back around like the pendulum swinging the other way to be like, actually, everyone can tell when it's just like pure AI slop and you still need a human being to like, edit and refine and have some discernment and judgment over the copy. So I think there'll be a push back towards like more human focused copy. ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (1:16:58)

.

Vanessa Green (1:17:12)

not a rejection of AI entirely, like, you know, we will become again, we are skeptical. So I think we'll become more skeptical of writing that doesn't sound like it was written by a human.

And we'll want to integrate that human in the loop approach to AI usage going forward. I think that's one big trend. Another one, I think, again, is like smaller businesses really investing in this these types of like social proof. So case studies really amping up things like reviews, testimonials. One of the things

when I do website projects is like really focusing on their home pages like try not to like try and back up everything you're saying with all of this social proof so showcase studies show testimonials show your ratings and it's forcing I think a lot of businesses to invest in that ⁓ because it's not enough to just say you're great I think people are really looking for that proof and I think a lot of businesses are gonna have to kind of come through and find ways to do that so they can gain the trust of their their audience

Alex Hobcraft (1:18:10)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, back to the AI because it is enormous just quickly. Just some people are saying that we are in an AI bubble and that it will burst. Kind of similar to the dot com at the late 90s, early 2000s. So yeah, I definitely see that happening for sure. Well, Vanessa, it's always a pleasure to speak with you. We always have great conversations and ⁓ you are part of Greenlight Content Marketing, which I will put in the show notes how everyone can get in touch with you.

Vanessa Green (1:18:19)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Hobcraft (1:18:40)

And thank you for your time and I hope you have a great day.

Vanessa Green (1:18:44)

Yeah, thanks for having me. You too. We'll chat soon. Okay. Bye, Alex.

Alex Hobcraft (1:18:47)

Yeah, sounds good. Take care.